Kisha: We are here with Nicole Hockley, who is the co-founder and CEO of Sandy Hook Promise. Nicole, after experiencing an unimaginable loss, what gave you the strength to transform your grief into action through Sandy Hook Promise?

Nicole: I've been asked that question a few times before and I don't really know. I think part of it is my DNA that I'm just that sort of person that has to do something. And I appreciate that grief is very unique in how it applies to individuals and what people experience. And I just knew that I had to use my voice to ensure that this didn't happen to anyone else. And it's also, I think, my love for my children that really powered that. I have to honor the legacy of Dylan who died and I need to protect the future for Jake that survived. And that's been a driving force behind everything that I do and why I get up every single day.

Kisha: That's amazing. How old would Dylan be today?

Nicole: Dylan, so this coming weekend would be his birthday and he would be 20 years old.

Kisha: That really is impactful because you see it in the news and then you don't really think about that after. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about Sandy Hook Promise and the work that you do.

Nicole: So Sandy Hook Promise simply we're working to create a future where no child experiences a school shooting, where kids are safe in their schools, homes and communities. And we do that by focusing on prevention. How do we recognize signs in someone who could be at risk of hurting themselves or hurting someone else? And how do we intervene before a tragedy happens? We do provide support after tragedies as well, but it's really all about how to help someone in those days, weeks, months, or years before they ever pick up a weapon to hurt themselves or someone else. And our focus is on training kids because this is about generational change and how we embed new skills, tools, and behaviors in our young people because they know that school shootings and gun bonds is preventable. So we just want to help them unlock that and create the future for them and that we all deserve.

Kisha: Yes. It's so sad that children are so aware. It's so important to have them be informed so they don't feel helpless and families as well.

Nicole: Absolutely.

Kisha: The Know the Signs program have definitely reached millions of students nationwide. What are some of the most powerful outcomes or stories that have stayed with you?

Nicole: Well, I think the stories are super important because they're evidence of how the programs work. We do a lot of research to prove the impact of our programs anyway and our policies. But when I think about, just since 2018, when we launched our anonymous reporting system, we've had tips come in from kids across the country, like I think over 340,000 tips so far, that has led directly as a result of our programs and our anonymous reporting system to about 1,200 imminent youth suicides that were stopped and now 19 credible planned school shooting attacks that did not happen. It can be very hard to prove prevention, but our focus is on, did the tip come into us first? Was it then confirmed as a valid threat? Did law enforcement then confirm that there were means, plans, and access to weapons? And when all of that comes together, that's when we say we've saved or stopped a school shooting or saved a life.

But to be honest, there are hundreds more that might be missing one of those criteria that we don't openly talk about. So we know our programs work and that kids have the power to stop school shootings.

Kisha: Yeah. Just like I said, just knowing that they can do their part.

Nicole: Absolutely.

Kisha: It helps because I know that it really weighs a lot on students even though they don't talk about it. What are some of the common warning signs of violence that parents, educators and students often overlook?

Nicole: Yeah. Some of the early, the most upstream warning signs can be the easiest ones to kind of dismiss or think they're unimportant. But if you think about violence as a path, school shootings, homicide and suicide is the end of the path. It's not where it begins. It usually begins much quieter. Bullying and social isolation are very critical precursors to other unhealthy choices that have not intervened on. So that's the top tip that we get into the anonymous reporting system is bullying and it's a threat that we need to look out for. If someone is being bullied or is the bullier, that's someone who needs help. Then we get into more overt signs such as bragging about access to weapons or studying or glorifying previous school shooters, warning friends to stay away, or in the impact of something like suicide, telling people, "You'd be better off without me or giving away possessions." These are all signs of someone who needs help, needs an intervention, needs to stop and create that intervention before it can escalate into tragedy.

Kisha: That's so awesome that there's support and resources out there. Yes. I've seen that, especially at this age in these times, students don't want to share that they are feeling something or that they're stressed, they don't want to be a problem. How can schools and PTAs play a meaningful role in creating a safer school environment beyond just physical security measures?

Nicole: Yeah, because that upstream prevention, that's really where you're going to help the kids. The security measures are very important, but that's more for when the danger's already in the school. Right. It's not stopping it from happening in the first place. The way that PTA and adults can help, there's so many resources on our site and elsewhere, but also like one thing, just being a trusted adult. When a kid comes to you and says, "I'm feeling this or I'm hearing this or I'm worried about my friend, take that seriously." We're not asking young people to create that intervention. They're coming to adults so that we can get the help that's needed. So we do a lot of program training for adults on what does it mean to be a trusted adult? What do you do when your child or another child comes to you and says, "I'm worried about this.”

What actions do you take and ensure that you take it seriously and act immediately? We also have things like advocacy, what the PTA is doing with the legislative conference, advocating, helping young people use their voices, but also as the caregivers and parents and the adults in the room, using our voices to protect them and demand and expect that protection and prevention becomes the norm rather than expecting the norm of school shootings.

Kisha: Yes. One of the things when we talked about just the grief of things and you talked a little bit today, there's a before and an after the before is just the day to day parenting that you talked about and the things that we get overwhelmed with day to day and we don't know how to handle and then our kids are talking and you're trying to get them out the door and all the things and do you have all your equipment and things like that?

Nicole: Chaos of parenthood.

Kisha: Chaos of parenthood. This is exactly what I'm living right now. What advice would you give to parents who feel overwhelmed or unsure about how to talk to their children in the midst of all this chaos about school safety and it's really about their daily mental health.

Nicole: Yeah. And I would say we all get overwhelmed. So that is okay to feel that way. That is quite typical and we all are in those circumstances and I would just encourage everyone to be intentional about making the time. Have the conversations with your kid. Ask them how their day was, but don't ask the yes or no questions. Encourage conversation. If you hear stories on the news or if something's coming up in social media, have that conversation with your kid because I guarantee you, they know more about what's going on than you think they do and if you coddle them or baby them in a way, you're not really validating their concerns and fears. It's okay to say, "I'm afraid too," or "I have these concerns too.” I have these feelings to work with your child, engage with them, converse so that they know you are a trusted adult that they can go to and that you're truly caring about their wellbeing.

Kisha: That's awesome. Before I ask my last question, I know that Sandy Hook Promise is doing the very important work of prevention. Yes. You've also lived with the aftermath as well. One of the things that at PTA, because we're so committed to mental health issues is there's so many survivors. And so it's like, "Oh, thank God you survived." And there's a lot that comes with those who survive. And so with what you just said, in particular with the day to day, what advice would you give families and also parent leaders in communities that have unfortunately experienced this type of violence or the threat of this kind of violence because it does stay with adults, but in most cases we kind of manage that. But with younger children, especially the tender young children, they're not always able to express how they're feeling.

Nicole: That's so true. And I think that expression is so critical. I've seen, including Sandy Hook, I've seen far too many communities after a tragedy, be afraid to talk about it and be afraid to let young people voice what they're feeling or act on what they're feeling. And I think that's doing them a disservice. The ripple effects of trauma are huge and lifelong. So whether you are a directly impacted family or you know of someone or it's in your community or it's in the community next to you or you're just seeing it on the news, you're still being traumatized with that secondary trauma and you need to recognize that and how that stays with you and then gets compounded.

With more events or practicing like active shooter drills. If we're practicing for when danger is going to come, then are we really teaching our kids that actually this is not the norm and that we can prevent these things. So I give a lot of, we do a lot of private work, Sandy Hook Promise with communities after tragedies and talking about what can come like in the first year at five years, 10 years and how, especially when someone is impacted at a young age, before their prefrontal cortex has completely developed, how those ripple effects of trauma can show up in other unhealthy choices, substance abuse, sexual abuse and violence, suicidal ideation. I know like my surviving son, he was a third grader at the school when Dylan was killed and he's 21 now and I still watch him like a hawk, but sometimes it's hard to know what is typical adolescent boy and what is trauma.

And what I have learned and what I share with others is don't project your own fears onto your child, ask them questions and help them understand and process. But if you're concerned, don't necessarily assume that your child is experiencing that same thing in the same way, being open minded to their experience.

Kisha: And I've heard a lot in talking to experts like trauma can be, that past trauma, you can be triggered by just the simplest thing. It could be a song that maybe they sang with a friend together or a trip or it's the next season of a sport in that friend. You just never know.

Nicole: And you have to give yourself the grace to know that it's going to come up in the most unexpected and unplanned ways. And again, that is okay because it's part of the experience and allow yourself to feel it in that moment and seek help, of course, seek help.

Kisha: Yes. I'm so thankful again for the work that you do and it's just so heartbreaking, not just for the losses, but also for those survivors that have to navigate life after such tragedies and then be re-triggered in new tragedies that happen.

Looking ahead, what progress gives you hope? We have had some incremental progress and what still needs urgent attention in the fight for prevention, gun violence prevention and school violence?

Nicole: Well, I think as a society, we need to really expect and demand prevention as the norm. The narrative that we still hear is very much around school shootings and gun violence are just normal in America and it's an accepted casualty of our Second Amendment rights. I do believe that you can still adhere to the Second Amendment and protect children and keep kids safe. So I have seen progress where legislators or politicians, we might seem that everything seems like it's such a huge polarized divide right now, but when it comes to children's safety, and it's definitely common ground that we can work from. And I also have a lot of hope for the programs because we know that these evidence-based programs work. My biggest hope though is with young people, because this is the generation that has grown up with school shootings, that has grown up with lockdown drills practicing for when a school shooting comes to their school.

This is the generation that's learning how to use their voice and advocate for themselves. And I truly believe that while we as a collective adult universe have let kids down, I don't think they're going to let that happen to their kids. So I believe that that change is going to come and it's on us as adults to just accelerate that as quickly as we can.

Kisha: That's awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. Your voice is just so important in this fight and we stand with you and just making sure this does not continue through the generations.